What are "Ackley Improved" cartridges?

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Taking the opportunity to record some opinions here on a topic that folks eventually run into, and have something for newer folks to reference, what are the "Ackley Improved" cartridges that folks have had experience with, and for folks that have built and shot them, and is it "worth it" compared to the standard cartridge?

Giving a brief overview for new folks who aren't familiar, "wildcatting" in firearms is basically running a unique or custom cartridge. For those who might have seen the name "Ackley" or "Ackley Improved" or "AI", there was a gentleman named P.O. Ackley that, at the early-mid part of the 20th century, was interested in gaining more performance from rifle cartridges. He was a prominent member of the "gun culture" of that era, and wrote books about his various experiments, and so a moniker was eventually developed when the pattern of modifications he applied to cartridges was applied to an existing factory cartridge, even if the development work was being done long after he was deceased, because of the reliable and repeatable methodology he applied.

As an example cartridge, the 280 Remington was introduced in 1957. The cartridge dimensions reflect the prevailing design features of the time, with sloping shoulders and a whole body taper from the base to the shoulder. To create the "wildcat" cartridge, the chamber was redesigned so that the taper along the body was almost completely removed, and the angle of the shoulder was increased, but the reference datum for head spacing off the shoulder was retained. This allowed a greater volume inside the cartridge, and the brass could be formed by simply shooting the original 280 REM in the newly designed chamber, and the pressures would "fire form" the brass to the new chamber dimensions. Once formed, new load development could occur to take advantage of that new brass shape.

Below is a picture comparing the original 280 REM and the "Ackley Improved" version:

280_Improved.webp


The change in shape increases the internal volume, which in turn means an increase in the available powder charge. With greater powder charges, this can lead to greater velocities and energy being sent downrange. Some cartridge designs respond to this change better than others, based on just how much volume is gained through removing the body taper and having a sharper shoulder angle, with cartridges that had a mild body taper or a sharper shoulder angle to begin with not seeing as much improvement.

As with any design change, there are benefits and drawbacks. Other than the volume increase, the sharper angle on the shoulder resists being pulled as the bullet moves out of the brass when fired. As such, full length trimming and re-sizing the cases because the brass has stretched is no longer a common concern with "Ackley Improved" cartridges, extending the relative life of the brass. A downside is that the sharper angle doesn't lend itself to loading quite as easily, where instead of concentric cones self-centering the bullet and aligning the brass to the chamber, the sharper shoulder and lack of significant body taper can get hung up and prevent smooth cycling. This is why, despite the performance improvements, such changes were not adopted universally, as there is no free lunch and to gain performance in one dimension often costs in another.

Now, with that largely condensed overview of what it means to have an "Ackley Improved" cartridge, what reasons have folks had to go after an "AI" cartridge themselves, and what kinds of experiences have you had with these changes in the design? What difficulties had to be overcome, and are they something that someone who is new to guns could overcome, or are they relegated to those with more experience?

Conversely, if there's corrections to explanations I've written above please let me know and I'll update accordingly. Never know when I don't actually know until it's pointed out by those that do. 😁
 
Great write up. Ackley Improved cartridges are a love them or hate them area, it seems to me.i for one love them. I built my current Savage Action,
chambored first, for 260 Remington. Which I like very much. I then rebarreled to 260AI & I’m sold. Another 100fps+, extended brass life, better efficiency & still able to fire 260Rem. (Which is how I fire form brass.) And any question of feeding can be addressed in custom work. There really is nothing NOT to like about them. You’ll find most people who dislike them speak of the time it takes & powder/primer waste in fire forming. Which is a fair argument. However, I don’t waste anything. I simply load new Lapua 260Rem brass and shoot it! Not to mention, I thoroughly enjoy reloading. I don’t find any aspect of it to be monotonous.

However, I don’t believe Ackley cartridges are for beginners. They MUST be reloaded. Save for 280 Ackley Improved, which can be purchased as factory loaded ammunition. (Because of its performance & success.) Although, even it should be reloaded to realize the maximum performance.

 
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I have been looking into the 260AI as my "next step" for longer range target shooting once I've had my fun with 6.5 Grendel. I "get" the 6.5 CM and I am sure it's just fine, but it has a bad taste in my mouth from how marketing and mob mentality has given it a reputation that is a genuine problem. Had a buddy think that "because it's a 6.5CM" he was good to take a shot on an elk at ~600yds when he went hunting a couple years ago. Now, thankfully, he did successfully take the animal in one shot, but when he examined the wound afterwards, decided that he wasn't ever going to do that again, and from that point would just use his father's 7mm REM MAG instead.

I can only imagine how many animals aren't so lucky.

With folks that are chambering AI nowadays, do you need to play with the freebore at all to take advantage of modern heavy-for-caliber and higher BC rounds, or does the increased volume of the AI help offset potential losses from deep seating to stay off the lands?
 
I have been looking into the 260AI as my "next step" for longer range target shooting once I've had my fun with 6.5 Grendel. I "get" the 6.5 CM and I am sure it's just fine, but it has a bad taste in my mouth from how marketing and mob mentality has given it a reputation that is a genuine problem. Had a buddy think that "because it's a 6.5CM" he was good to take a shot on an elk at ~600yds when he went hunting a couple years ago. Now, thankfully, he did successfully take the animal in one shot, but when he examined the wound afterwards, decided that he wasn't ever going to do that again, and from that point would just use his father's 7mm REM MAG instead.

I can only imagine how many animals aren't so lucky.

With folks that are chambering AI nowadays, do you need to play with the freebore at all to take advantage of modern heavy-for-caliber and higher BC rounds, or does the increased volume of the AI help offset potential losses from deep seating to stay off the lands?
Same. I don’t remember any other cartridge with the same attention to marketing that the Creedmoor received. As a result, interWEBS claims over the last decade have been some of the worst. People claiming 3000fps with 140+. Even many online reloading sites have adopted the lies. Hornady was brilliant in their game plan. They paid off the right people to “stretch” the truth. Just go look at online reloading guides and compare 6.5CM to 260Rem. They now show the 6.5CM with HIGHER velocity. Smaller case, less powder, but somehow HIGHER velocity. Yet, when you look up factor ammo, 260 is ALWAYS loaded faster. So WHO is lying? It’s a-shame, because before Hornady did all that with the Creedmoor, there was integrity in ammunition & reloading companies. But not anymore. It’s about the bottom line for them now. Integrity is gone & truth is changed depending on what’s selling. The 6.5 Creedmoor was used for all that. It’s a good cartridge sure. But for that simple fact, I won’t ever have anything with Creedmoor on. I don’t buy anything Hornady either.

As for freebore, yes, it’s better to go with the Target freebore or custom length. The magazines now will load cartridges to 2.950” COAL now.
 
I lost all respect for Hornady after they blatantly copied Henderson's case trimmer. Big kudos to RCBS for partnering with Henderson to come with their improved version of the same. (y)

IMHO, big game hunting has always been about ethical choices and skill, some can't do it no matter what rifle or cartridge they use.
 
I've never seen the use of improving modern cartridge cases except for increasing case life due to less case stretch on firing. But, if you have your reloading dies set correctly you have already done that.

I think that the real improvement in performance comes from improving the older style cases like the 22.250, 250 Savage, 375H&H, etc, that have a lot of body taper. PO Ackley said that he thought that is best AI cartridge was the 250 Savage AI since the original case had a lot of body taper.
 
250 Savage Improved on the left, original .250 Savage on the right:

1644778875284.webp


This picture also conveniently included a headspace gauge, though can't tell which one exactly, but it shows that I probably should have been a bit more specific in that where the shoulder meets the neck remains the same, and is the reference point often used for bottleneck cartridges to headspace. That's why the lower shoulder where it meets the body can be pushed out and the body taper removed, and original brass still be shot in an "Improved" chamber.
 
Yup. That’s why I don’t ascribe to the “waste of powder & primers” some haters like to use. I don’t fire-form cases separate; with the whole cream of wheat & tissue paper cap! I load Lapua 260 cases with plinking bullets & a mild load. Perfect stress relief shooting rounds. And makes a perfect AI formed case.
 
Same. I don’t remember any other cartridge with the same attention to marketing that the Creedmoor received. As a result, interWEBS claims over the last decade have been some of the worst. People claiming 3000fps with 140+. Even many online reloading sites have adopted the lies. Hornady was brilliant in their game plan. They paid off the right people to “stretch” the truth. Just go look at online reloading guides and compare 6.5CM to 260Rem. They now show the 6.5CM with HIGHER velocity. Smaller case, less powder, but somehow HIGHER velocity. Yet, when you look up factor ammo, 260 is ALWAYS loaded faster. So WHO is lying? It’s a-shame, because before Hornady did all that with the Creedmoor, there was integrity in ammunition & reloading companies. But not anymore. It’s about the bottom line for them now. Integrity is gone & truth is changed depending on what’s selling. The 6.5 Creedmoor was used for all that. It’s a good cartridge sure. But for that simple fact, I won’t ever have anything with Creedmoor on. I don’t buy anything Hornady either.

As for freebore, yes, it’s better to go with the Target freebore or custom length. The magazines now will load cartridges to 2.950” COAL now.
I've been shooting the 6.5 CM and the 260 Remington since 2009 and have never shot a single round of factory ammo. I handload for everything I shoot except Rimfire. I don't ever recall anyone in the reloading world claiming they could get 3000 fps out of either cartridge with a 140+ grain bullet.
Reloader 17 and 26 can achieve some great velocities in either cartridge, but you aren't going to get 3000 fps.

There are also very few AI cartridges that I've ever tried that were worth the bother for the small fps gains that you got over the standard cartridge. I built a 260 AI several years ago, and my best shooting load was only 72 fps faster than what I get out of my standard 260 Remington. It didn't take me long to sell the barrel and Redding dies for the 260 AI.

My maximum load with the 6.5 CM is with Reloader 17, and it is 2914 fps using SRP Lapua brass shooting a 143gr Hornady ELD-M bullet.
nLhF1CC.jpg


My go to load is this, I have really good luck with it at 1k or out to a mile shooting steel.
43ysQ9Y.jpg


Just gotta tease you with the rifle pic Dave, I know how much you love the IOR Recon scope!
p1SoBDK.jpg
 
I don't think there is a powder that could achieve 3000 fps with a 6.5mm CM with 140 gr bullets and stay within Pmax.
I did some playing with QuickLOAD and the best I could get was 2,950 fps and that was pushing Pmax to the limit.
I too don't ever remember anyone who claimed 3000 fps with a 6.5mm CM, but that doesn't mean some did.
There are lots of reloaders who push well past Pmax because they think velocity is everything.
I have never found that pushing Pmax has ever accomplished anything but punish brass, loosen primer pockets, and bruise my shoulder. Velocity has never gained accuracy for me.
Then again, I am also not trying to maintain bullet kinetic energy at 500 yards so I could hunt elk at long distance, so I am probably not a good source for extending muzzle velocity.
 
Just gotta tease you with the rifle pic Dave, I know how much you love the IOR Recon scope!
p1SoBDK.jpg

I do. I really do. IOR done did ‘em right! It’s the perfect scope. I mean, it’s made in TRANSYLVANIA for goodness sake! OK, OK… Bucharest! But they’re only like 4 hours about in Romania.😂 But, I’ll just have to keep on admiring. They might be cheap next to a Tangent Theta, but still too rich for my blood.

It’s strange how there are things a person WILL spend a lot of money on, vs having a limit. While I was willing to drop $1K+ on a Mirage URL Chassis, but I just can’t bring myself to spend the money they want for their Glass. Ah well. C’est la vie!
 
I’m not one to reload to the maximum charge, so getting just a bit more by changing the chamber and brass doesn’t appeal to me. But I do appreciate the science.

If I want my 308 to behave more like a 30-06, then I’ll buy a 30-06.

I do have an affinity with obsolete cartridges for historical or unique firearms and have an interest in all that hassle of making them work again. Go figure.

There is something for everybody in this hobby. Ain’t it great? lol
 
There is more to it. With different cartridges, there is always a tradeoff. The more taper a case has the easier loading it may give. However, a more straight wall case with greater angle shoulder (30°-40°), is a more efficient design.
 
I’m not one to reload to the maximum charge, so getting just a bit more by changing the chamber and brass doesn’t appeal to me. But I do appreciate the science.

If I want my 308 to behave more like a 30-06, then I’ll buy a 30-06.

I do have an affinity with obsolete cartridges for historical or unique firearms and have an interest in all that hassle of making them work again. Go figure.

There is something for everybody in this hobby. Ain’t it great? lol
Among all the other (of too many) irons in the fire, I recently became tickled by the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge. It's base is slightly skinnier than 9MM Luger, necks down to a .308"-.312" projectile, and has a COAL of about 1.39". Short neck at maybe ~0.14", but was also designed around rather short 85gr bullets way back in Soviet Russia in 1930. Historically the accuracy has been a mixed bag, but I think that's in part because the Russians originally used the same barrel blanks for this cartridge as other 30 caliber offerings (like 7.62X54R) in their SMGs. The twist rate was a ~1:10, and so between spinning them really fast and having loose tolerances (wartime sucks), as well as only short-range expectations due to being a pistol cartridge, the design and its capabilities are historically limited.

762x25mm Tokarev.webp


Now, the 30BR is usually running a ~1:17 for a 110-125gr projectile, and is known to be an accurate cartridge, so even without looking at a stability calculator the ~1:10 spin rate is probably much higher than it needs to be for a supersonic 85gr, but for subsonic loadings that might actually be "just right", or set the ceiling just a bit lower than 300 BLK.

And that's where I had run into this cartridge in the first place, while researching various subsonic-only wildcat cartridges for the AR15:

Ron Williams - RMW Extreme - Wildcat Cartridges

AR15 SUB WILDCATS.webp


I was trying to figure out whether there was an "off the shelf" option that was already really close to the .308/9MM or .308/9x23 WIN, and that's what tipped me off to the 7.62x25.

So one experiment is to see what happens if I use the Tokarev as a base, perhaps keeping the 1:10, and then mating PPS-43 magazines (35 rounds) to a Savage magwell with a removeable insert for a "plinking" round, and then maybe run the subsonics from a STANAG pattern with a different insert. Would need to play with neck tension and freebore to find a good balance with the case capacity and seating depth. Might be fun. Might be fruitless.

Anyways, I don't know how to connect that back to Ackley Improved, but sometimes seeing what others have experimented with to resurrect or get more out of an existing cartridge design can spark an idea in someone else other than immediate mockery. 😁
 
Among all the other (of too many) irons in the fire, I recently became tickled by the 7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge. It's base is slightly skinnier than 9MM Luger, necks down to a .308"-.312" projectile, and has a COAL of about 1.39". Short neck at maybe ~0.14", but was also designed around rather short 85gr bullets way back in Soviet Russia in 1930. Historically the accuracy has been a mixed bag, but I think that's in part because the Russians originally used the same barrel blanks for this cartridge as other 30 caliber offerings (like 7.62X54R) in their SMGs. The twist rate was a ~1:10, and so between spinning them really fast and having loose tolerances (wartime sucks), as well as only short-range expectations due to being a pistol cartridge, the design and its capabilities are historically limited.

View attachment 645

Now, the 30BR is usually running a ~1:17 for a 110-125gr projectile, and is known to be an accurate cartridge, so even without looking at a stability calculator the ~1:10 spin rate is probably much higher than it needs to be for a supersonic 85gr, but for subsonic loadings that might actually be "just right", or set the ceiling just a bit lower than 300 BLK.

And that's where I had run into this cartridge in the first place, while researching various subsonic-only wildcat cartridges for the AR15:

Ron Williams - RMW Extreme - Wildcat Cartridges

View attachment 646

I was trying to figure out whether there was an "off the shelf" option that was already really close to the .308/9MM or .308/9x23 WIN, and that's what tipped me off to the 7.62x25.

So one experiment is to see what happens if I use the Tokarev as a base, perhaps keeping the 1:10, and then mating PPS-43 magazines (35 rounds) to a Savage magwell with a removeable insert for a "plinking" round, and then maybe run the subsonics from a STANAG pattern with a different insert. Would need to play with neck tension and freebore to find a good balance with the case capacity and seating depth. Might be fun. Might be fruitless.

Anyways, I don't know how to connect that back to Ackley Improved, but sometimes seeing what others have experimented with to resurrect or get more out of an existing cartridge design can spark an idea in someone else other than immediate mockery. 😁
I’m not sure exactly what you are looking to turn the 7.62x25 into? With the 85gr, it’s just a pistol round. Are you talking about exploring its use with 125gr bullets? Or are you looking for slower 150gr loadings up to the subsonic only 220gr offering?
Obviously, finding correct twist rate is quite easy using an online Bullet Stabilization Calculator.
 
I’m not sure exactly what you are looking to turn the 7.62x25 into? With the 85gr, it’s just a pistol round. Are you talking about exploring its use with 125gr bullets? Or are you looking for slower 150gr loadings up to the subsonic only 220gr offering?
Obviously, finding correct twist rate is quite easy using an online Bullet Stabilization Calculator.
The primary concept is subsonic only with "heavier than 85gr" 308 diameter bullets. I just don't know how heavy yet, because of the short neck on the TOK. Wildcatting means I could kinda do whatever, but am instead trying to stick as close to a "factory" brass design as possible.

The TOK headspacing off the shoulder gives me more flexibility on the crimp style and force, since I'm needing to play with different weights and ogive profiles to get a stable geometry and consistent seating.

When I do find that sweet spot, the next step is with figuring out freebore, then twist spec, then barrel length to get ~1050ft/s MV, and so on.

The shoulder is sharp enough that I don't think much could be gained from "Improving" it ALA Ackley, but maybe with a ridiculous bullet sticking way out the front, I still find myself just shy of the volume I'd need, and pushing things just that little extra bit might make enough of a difference. 🤷‍♂️
 
The primary concept is subsonic only with "heavier than 85gr" 308 diameter bullets. I just don't know how heavy yet, because of the short neck on the TOK. Wildcatting means I could kinda do whatever, but am instead trying to stick as close to a "factory" brass design as possible.

The TOK headspacing off the shoulder gives me more flexibility on the crimp style and force, since I'm needing to play with different weights and ogive profiles to get a stable geometry and consistent seating.

When I do find that sweet spot, the next step is with figuring out freebore, then twist spec, then barrel length to get ~1050ft/s MV, and so on.

The shoulder is sharp enough that I don't think much could be gained from "Improving" it ALA Ackley, but maybe with a ridiculous bullet sticking way out the front, I still find myself just shy of the volume I'd need, and pushing things just that little extra bit might make enough of a difference. 🤷‍♂️

Ok, I think I’m following. But, honestly, why not just do 300AAC? Less work, and in the end, it’s probably going to perform better than any wild cat.

So, here’s my point. They have the same head, very close body diameter and the powder column, minus the shoulder & neck are close as well. The extra length for the 300AAC is mostly in the neck; which is a GOOD thing. Now, if it’s purely for doing the wildcatting work, I get it. I’m not a Wildcat’r, but I like doing, building, making my own things.


 
Ok, I think I’m following. But, honestly, why not just do 300AAC? Less work, and in the end, it’s probably going to perform better than any wild cat.

So, here’s my point. They have the same head, very close body diameter and the powder column, minus the shoulder & neck are close as well. The extra length for the 300AAC is mostly in the neck; which is a GOOD thing. Now, if it’s purely for doing the wildcatting work, I get it. I’m not a Wildcat’r, but I like doing, building, making my own things.
1) Using Starline as comparison, new 300 AAC Blackout brass is slightly more expensive than 7.62x25mm Tokarev, but both can be made from 223 REM. This is also where, should the TOK neck become a problem, one possibility is to use converted 223 REM brass and just not trim as short. That would require chamber design changes, but that can be baked into a custom reamer at the same time as adding extra freebore.

2) Using ammoseek.com, new 300 AAC (brass case) rounds are basically the same cost as the TOK.

3) The TOK is also used in the Zastava M57 and PPS-43, both of which I am already working on procuring, so the basic 85gr loads are going to be on hand anyways. For the PPS-43, I am waiting on a semi-auto trigger assembly. The M57 is waiting on more important costs being addressed this year, but Zastava currently offers a factory refurbished model for a decent price w/2 mags. My heritage is Yugoslavian (Croatian specifically) and so that's a small part of why I ended up with an XDM over other 10mm's, because the hand fitment was really nice for me. The Serbs had also extended the frame on their version of the Tokarev pistol to hold 9 rounds versus the original Soviet 8 rounds, so it's not a new design phenomenon.

4) Recoil for the 300 AAC has parity with 223 REM, but a centerfire pistol round will have less recoil and can still be reloaded unlike rimfire, and using less than 12gr of powder per shot.

5) The TOK is, based on my sloppy failures so far, not an easy cartridge to reload. So like learning a manual transmission, if I and my kids can handle something like this, then we can probably handle most anything else we run across. I already reload and shoot my own 45 ACP, 308 WIN, and 223 REM, so this is like a "hard mode" I guess.

All that to say the project isn't in isolation so much as part of exploring a potential extension of an ecosystem into new territory.

Which doesn't mean I am not an idiot or that this is actually a good use of time. :ROFLMAO:
 
Ah.. ok. You aren’t really looking to do a wildcat. You want to chamber a Savage barrel for 7.62 Tok., basically, with more headspace for longer, heavier Spitzer type bullets. Ok, ok. I’m catchin’ what you’re throwin’ pard.🙂
 
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Yup, I've got a stripped Axis action that I picked up for ~$30 reserved for the project, and was inspired by the wildcat "nanosonic" cartridges, but wanted to see how close I could get to that concept with entirely "off-the-shelf" parts.

I'm not even being particularly original though, because I've seen it done before:

Sunday GunDay: Home-Built 7.62×25 Tokarev Custom Rifle

The closer I could get the combination to fit within the CIP specifications the better.

Worst case, the TOK is skinny and short enough that the barrel could still be reamed to 30BR or "plain old" 308WIN, so while it is an experiment, there's some risk mitigation for the barrel and action at least. 😅
 

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