What in tarnation!?!?!

[The Infamous Jim B.]

Yes, it's me - the infamous Jim B. of Savage Shooters lore!

Founder of the Brotherhood
Former Great Chief of the Barrel Nut Tribe
Rightful heir to Hammer's collection of shot-out .220 Swift barrels
Master seeker of dropped detent balls and ejector springs
Banner of spammers and ;self-proclaimed internet know-it-alls
Accidental creator of the .204 Ruger Belted Magnum
Keeper of the knowledge of all things Savage (except whatever it is that you have a specific question about - ain't nobody got time for that!)

How's that for a Game of Throne's intro? Daenerys Targaryen ain't got nothin` on The Infamous Jim B.!

 

[Alan]

Good to see you, Jim. I'm glad you made it here.
The Brotherhood wouldn't be the same without you.

 

[chronoblip]

That's quite a reputation!

So...is the 204 Ruger belted just a 224 WBY MAG necked down?

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Welcome on board.

 

[Shoots100]

Holy introductions Batman !
Glad to know you're still kicking and that they gave you internet privileges back again.
SJC

 

[CFJunkie]

Good to hear from you, Jim.
Welcome

 

[SevenFan]

Great to see you Jim! We couldn't do without the brotherhood of the barrel nut.

 

[The Infamous Jim B.]

That's quite a reputation!

So...is the 204 Ruger belted just a 224 WBY MAG necked down?

Nope, it's a slightly more than overly hot load in a standard .204 Ruger case.

Exceptional velocity for a .20 caliber, but brass life was extremely short!

Joking aside, I still have no clue how this happened. I had loaded up 20 rounds with Varget after doing some ladder testing the day before, charges verified both by weight and column height visual inspection in the cases before seating the bullets. Shot the first 4 rounds with no issues, then pulled the trigger on this one which had a noticeably different report to it. The rim and webbing expanded soo much that it literally pushed the extractor out far enough that it locked up the bolt and the rim of the case was holding in the extractor detent ball and spring and locked up the bolt (first photo above). I had to pull the barrel, pry the case out of the bolt head and pry the extractor back into position to get the bolt out. Didn't hurt the action or barrel any, but it was an eye opener to say the least.

Pulled the remaining 15 rounds apart to and verify the charge weights and all of them were spot-on so no clue what happened with that one round. I can't recall the exact charge weight, but I know it wasn't excessively hot and only slightly compressed - probably somewhere in the 27.0 to 27.5 range. No pressure signs what-so-ever on the four cases I fired just prior to this one - no flattened primers, no hard extraction, no ejector markings, nada. It was a truly a fluke that to this day some 20 years later I still have no explanation for.

 

[ONE-TEN]

Howdy Jim.
Bout time you got here.

 

[Frontiersman]

Better late than never?

Welcome!

 

[The Infamous Jim B.]

After 24 years running the old site, I was long overdue for a year off! haha

 

[pdog06]

Good to hear from ya Jim! Hope you’ve had a nice break from the day to day of running the site. You can turn it back on whenever you’re ready…lol

 

[The Infamous Jim B.]

Good to hear from ya Jim! Hope you’ve had a nice break from the day to day of running the site. You can turn it back on whenever you’re ready…lol

Yeah, I don't see that happening - at least not the forum part. I'm still debating whether or not I want to relaunch SS as just an article site that I can publish to if/when I feel like it, if I want to do a more general non-brand specific article/industry news only site (like my old second site), or just stay on the sideline as a spectator/occasional contributor.

One of the big deterrents for me at this point is AI within the search engines. Type in a question and the AI will spit you out a lengthy answer in a second or two (it's usually wrong and/or woefully lacking in details), and they're pulling all that information from content like my own and that created by others. So rather than the search engines providing the link to my (or others) content and getting us the traffic and potential ad revenue from that click-thru the AI just compiles the data and hands it to them on a silver platter with no need to click anything. So where's the incentive for myself and others to publish our content online just to be undermined by AI? It no longer exists.

I actually saved a "conversation" that I had with Google's search AI the other day pertaining to the Stevens 411 SxS. I got quite a kick out of the AI all but apologizing for being incorrect and failing to provide a more detailed and accurate answer to my question.

Me: What was the original MSRP for the Stevens 411 Upland Sporter?


AI: The original MSRP for the Stevens Model 411 Upland Sporter was $395 for the 12-gauge model and $432 for the 20-gauge and .410 bore models when introduced by Savage Arms in 2003. [1, 2]

Shotgun Overview

• Manufacturer: Savage Arms / Stevens (crafted in Russia)
• Action: Side-by-side double barrel
• Gauges: 12-gauge, 20-gauge, and .410 bore
• Barrel Length: 28 inches for 12-gauge; 26 inches for 20-gauge and .410 bore [1, 2, 3]

If you are looking for current market or used values for the Stevens 411, let me know the gauge and condition of the shotgun.



[1] https://www.gun-tests.com

[2] https://gunvalues.gundigest.com

[3] https://www.louiscandell.com


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Me: How many Stevens 411 Upland Sporters were made in 20-gauge

AI: The exact production numbers for the Stevens Model 411 Upland Sporter in 20-gauge have never been publicly released by Savage Arms.

Because these shotguns were only imported from Russia for a very short period (beginning in 2003), production was quite limited compared to older American-made Stevens models. While exact totals are a trade secret, sub-gauge variants like the 20-gauge and .410 bore are much scarcer on the used market than the standard 12-gauge version, often commanding a 50% price premium among collectors and buyers. [1]

If you are tracking down a 20-gauge model to purchase, I can help you estimate its current used market value based on recent auction data.



[1] https://gunvalues.gundigest.com


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Me: Your reply is incorrect. There were no Stevens 411 Upland sporters imported or sold in 20-gauge or .410 bore. Savage Arms intended to offer this model in .410-bore and 20-gauge the following year, but their contract with the manufacturer in Russia (Baikal) was cancelled when Remington Arms contracted with them for several different models of rifles and shotguns which became Remington's budget Spartan line of firearms in 2005.

AI: You are entirely correct, and I appreciate you setting the record straight. Savage Arms never imported or sold the Stevens Model 411 Upland Sporter in 20-gauge or .410 bore.

What Actually Happened

While Savage Arms fully intended to expand the lineup and even went as far as listing MSRPs and specifications for the 20-gauge and .410 variants in early marketing and industry value guides, those sub-gauge models never made it across the Atlantic. [1]

• 
  
• The Broken Contract: Savage's importation agreement with the Russian manufacturer, Baikal (Izhmekh), was abruptly cut short.
• The Remington Spartan Takeover: In 2005, Remington Arms secured an exclusive contract with Baikal. This deal completely cut Savage out of the picture and absorbed Baikal's output into Remington’s new budget "Spartan Gunworks" line (such as the SPR210 side-by-side).

As a result, only the initial 12-gauge production run of the Stevens 411 ever made it to store shelves, making any printed data about 20-gauge or .410 models purely a historical "what if." Thank you for correcting that oversight!

If you want, I can find the equivalent Remington Spartan model names that Baikal eventually produced for those 20-gauge and .410 configurations.



[1] https://gunvalues.gundigest.com


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So Google's AI actually had all the accurate information to answer my second question correctly but deliberately chose not to and made up it's own little version of history.

So not only do writers like myself have to contend with AI stealing our content and using it to prevent people from clicking through to the actual page or site it was posted to, we also have to contend with AI twisting that information into it's own make-believe reality that it shares to the masses. Then we have to turn around and waste our time correcting everyone who read the AI's version who then went on to profess it on forums, FB groups or in their own content as the gospel because the AI said so.

Just a few years ago (pre-AI) if someone did a search for a specific issue or problem they were having with their Savage rifle, odds are the top 5 or 10 results would have been links to an article or forum post on the old site. Post-AI implementation those search results are buried below the fold of the results page because the AI response deliberately takes up the full viewable screen with it's answer and you have to scroll down to find any actual links to actual human generated content - and the AI does that deliberately by design. So how many click-thru's and page visits did AI cost the site since it's been deployed in the search engines? How many Savage owners doing such searches never found their way to the site or forum because of AI because the links were buried below the fold? How many of them would have likely registered on the site and/or possibly became paying members at some point? There's no way to know or get those answers, but the rapid decline in traffic on the old site after the search AI's were deployed is a pretty good indication the numbers were likely pretty high.

Fortunately for me that's Alan's battle to fight now. (sorry Alan!)

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised someone hasn't tried to sue these search engine companies yet for using AI to harvest their intellectual property and in doing so depriving the creator potential click-thru revenue by providing the searcher that intellectual property at the top of the main search results page and thus eliminating the searcher's need to click thru to the original page/site which is/was most likely trying to generate revenue via advertising (likely from the very same company - Google via GoogleAds - who's AI is dispersing said intellectual property).

So yeah, that's a big part of why I'm still sitting on the fence contemplating on whether or not I want to wade back into that pool of AI piranha's. Maybe I'll just setup a 1-900-4Savage tech support line and charge $3.95/minute. If I hired Fred to work the lines I'd be a millionaire in a few months as he gets quite chatty and frequently goes off on tangents.

 

[pdog06]

Don’t blame ya a bit! Between all that and continuously fighting off scammers it had to be a constant headache.
In rememberance, I still have my Savageshooters wall clock, and pretty much a lifetime supply of extra Pa Shootout stickers and t-shirts…lol