Help me choose.

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Paddyd

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Getting ready to order a new prefit for my old M12 LRPV single shot. Right now it will float a 1" diameter, so that is how fat im going, but haven't decided what twist and length yet.
It will be a straight 223Rem. shot at 100 and 200 yds only, but im interested in whether I should do 22 or 24". Im leaning towards a 9 twist but looking for some other opinions. Achieving highest velocities arent important to me. I am looking for tiny groups and looking for opinions on short and stiff vs long and kinda stiff. LOL
 
Well, is weight important to you? Or, are you planning to stick a Can on the end?If the answer is yes, a 22” may be worth it. If the answer is no, I would go 24”. Honestly, when talking about stiffness of a 1” diameter Steel, 22cal barrel, 2” is LESS than a discernible amount! Much less. Now, 18”, or even 16”? Now THAT is enough to for the ol’ Stiffness Meter to register.😉😂.

As for twist, that all depends on what bullets you plan to use. Staying with <70gr bullets mostly? Then.. yeah, absolutely, a 1:9 is the answer. Or, do you like the heavy for caliber pills? Are you planning primarily, to use 75gr, 77gr? Heavier? Or, the all Copper bullets? In that case, I personally would choose faster. Although, for years & years, people have consistently fired the heavier 77gr. bullets, I still like keeping stability above 1.5SG.
 
Over the years I have migrated from 24 to 26 or 28 inch 416R Stainless Steel bull barrels for my bench rifles.
The downside is that they are heavy to carry around.
The upside is that they are heavy on the bench and seem to be more accurate because they don't move around, especially for the higher calibers.

For my .223s, I have also migrated from a 1:9 to a 1:7 twist. I have not changed the twist on my 6.5mm CM barrel.
With the 1:7 twist barrel, the 69s and 73s still shoot great, but I found that some of the 77s and 80s shoot even better. I just wanted to try heavier bullets, but did not expect those improvements. I shoot mostly at 100 yards because our range is limited on space.
The faster twist on the .223 did not impact the potential for 69s and 73s to shoot great also but it gave me the option of trying some heavier bullets.
 
True; 223 is a super forgiving cartridge. (Among the reasons I love it so much!) It does things with different twists, that on paper say it should NOT do. I’ve seen 1:9 Barrels stabilize longer, heavier bullets than they should. And I’ve seen 1:7 & 1:8 Barrels shoot incredibly light, short bullets without problem. I do think believe in matching as best as possible, to the shooting being accomplished. The criteria outlined here by the OP, is 200yds MAX distance, and 69gr MAX weight.
Just my take.

Personally I also like heavy barrels, although, I prefer the MTU profile, which finishes at .930” for 26”. My barrel is 28”, so finished at .920”. Takes just a bit less weight compared to full Bull, without losing any performance. In fact, it’s argued the stiffest barrels, in terms of harmonics management, are the Heavy & Light Palma contours, the MTU & M24. Those four barrel profiles are used above all others.
 
As CFJunkie mentioned the bull barrel is heavy to carry around. However going from the car to the bench isn't bad. I carry my heavy barrel in the pairie dog fields, but I made a cart to carry the rifle and food, water, etc in.

I use an 8 twist for everything and just shoot the heaviest bullet I can stick in it that will give good accuracy. I only shoot 69's in my 223 but shoot 105's in my 6 BR.
 
The 30BR guys run a 110-125gr 308 caliber bullet around 3k at the muzzle, but also frequently have a 1:17 twist, which doesn't actually add up per the online stability calculators. I wonder if you folks that have been able to get the 223 REM to punch above its weight twist rate are experiencing a similar phenomenon?
 
chronoblip said:
The 30BR guys run a 110-125gr 308 caliber bullet around 3k at the muzzle, but also frequently have a 1:17 twist, which doesn't actually add up per the online stability calculators. I wonder if you folks that have been able to get the 223 REM to punch above its weight twist rate are experiencing a similar phenomenon?
Click to expand...
my 26" 1/9 twist isnt supposed to, but stabilizes 77 gn match kings just fine. I think it is the bit of extra velocity the 26" barrel adds just enough extra spin.
 
My 1:9 did too. I measured the twist and found it was just a bit faster than 1:9, actually 1:8.75.
That seemed to make the differences. I never pushed the velocity faster, because I load for Optimum Bullet Time, but the 77s still shot as good or better than all but the 73 Bergers.
 
Again, 224” Caliber seem to exhibit this phenomenon quite well. Actually, they seem to be the only target comfortable caliber that feels perfectly at home in a 1:9 twist pipe, as it does in a 1:7 twist. I haven’t really come across any other caliber that exhibits this characteristic to such a degree and, in such a wide margin of bullet weights. To have anything from a 40gr to 77gr bullet deliver exceptional accuracy in a 1:7 or 1:9 twist, is unheard of by any other, as far as I know. And then given the 1:7 can stable bullets up to 90gr. is truly astonishing.
 
Paddyd said:
Getting ready to order a new prefit for my old M12 LRPV single shot. Right now it will float a 1" diameter, so that is how fat im going, but haven't decided what twist and length yet.
It will be a straight 223Rem. shot at 100 and 200 yds only, but im interested in whether I should do 22 or 24". Im leaning towards a 9 twist but looking for some other opinions. Achieving highest velocities arent important to me. I am looking for tiny groups and looking for opinions on short and stiff vs long and kinda stiff. LOL
Click to expand...
So... have you made the choice yet?
 
The LRPV .223 comes with a 26-inch SS factory barrel for a reason.
So did both of my 12 FVs, one in .223 and one in 6.5 mm CM.

I replaced the .223 factory 12 FV factory barrel with a 26-inch bull 416R SS Shilen Select Match and the accuracy improved by about 20%.
I replaced the 6.5mm CM 12 FV factory barrel with a 28-inch bull 416R SS Shilen Select Match barrel and the accuracy improved by about 23%.
I think the improvement difference was the combination of the shooter's improved ability to control recoil with the 6.5mm CM due to the increase in weight of the chassis and barrel combination.
 
I spent 3 years shooting a Savage 223 in local matches. The first was a Model 10 with a 24" Sporter profile barrel. I shot that one for one season and it taught me much. Much about the caliber, rifle etiquette, Match shooting, bench posture, reloading for rifle and also about target scopes.

Second year I moved to a Model 11 with a Factory Savage Model 12 26" Varmint profile barrel. I shot the snot out of that rifle! Improved all my techniques and increased my scores. Took that gun to the limits of what I feel it was capable of with that barrel and bullet combination.

I am now shooting matches with a Model 110 action with a Shilen 28" Bull barrel chambered in 6ARC. I will be starting my 3rd season with it this year.

I still feel a calling back to the 223 and will most likely do it. The shooting I do is all bench work from 100yds to 300yds. and required to be shot from a bipod. So my choice will be; again a 26" barrel, 1:8 twist over a 1:9, Bull profile.

Reasoning, 1:8 twist to shoot 80gr SMK or 77gr pills as the heavier bullets buck the wind much better when one is shooting for scores. The heavy barrel, because it stays in place and fights recoil better.

Lastly, if I was not frequently shooting to 300yds I would stick with the 1:9 twist and start looking at better 68gr Match bullets.
 
It isn't the weight of the bullets as much as it is the length (bearing surface) of the bullets.
A 1-9 twist will accurately shoot / stabilize bullets like the 75 gr & 77 gr BTHP bullets because the design of the bullets are short enough that they are stabilized by a 1-9 twist rate.
But, bullets like the 75 gr AMax or VLD's and heavier bullets with high B.C.'s will require faster twist rates to be stabilized.

My old Savage 12 FLVSS has a 1-9 twist 26" barrel. It loves to shoot 77gr SMK bullets and 75gr BTHP bullets.
Both of my 223 AR15's have 1-8 twist barrels (18" & 20" long) and love the same type of bullets. They will both shoot the longer high B.C. bullets like the 75gr-80gr ELD, but are limited by the magazine length, and would have to be loaded like a single shot rifle because the rounds won't fit in an AR15 magazine.
My custom action 223 has a 1-7 twist 20" barrel because I shoot suppressed. Adding a 8" suppressor to a rifle will make you want shorter barrels if you use the gun for anything other than shooting off a bench. I shoot 75, 80, and 88gr bullets out of this rifle.
 
Good post.👍

I’ve said it before. 223 is one of those forgiving calibers. Now, I don’t do 223 Bolt Guns. All my 223’s have been AR-15’s I’ve built. (And there have been a BUTT LOAD of them!) But I’ve had 1:9 Barrel’d ARs that would stabilize the 75gr. just fine. And I’ve also had 1:7 Barrel’d ARs, that shoot the ultra light 45gr. etc., without issue. I am a HUGE fan of 223. Even if it is just in my ARs. 😉
 
Shoots100 said:
Since the powder burns up in around 18" of barrel length, long barrels aren't needed for 100-200 yard bench shooting.
I would go 22" 1-9 twist.
SJC
Click to expand...
Yea. Im actually looking at a 9 twist in a 22 to 24 " 1.250" dia. my current 9 twist shoots 50 and 52 gn match bullets great at 1 and 200 yds and im pretty limited here at this range so I really dont see need to stabilize anything heavier than 69 gn.
 
Shoots100,
Powder burning up in a .22LR in 16 to 18 inches has been noted, but that it with about 3 grains of powder.
22.9 grains of Varget with an 80 grain Berger VLD bullet in a 26-inch .223 barrel is only 96.66% burned at the muzzle with a muzzle velocity of 2689 fps.
In a 24 inch barrel, only 96.08% of the powder is burned at the muzzle and velocity is 2642 fps.
Both loads are in the moderate psi range - just over 46K psi.

Barrel length makes a difference when the powder volume is sufficient, regardless of the distance the bullet will eventually travel.
 
CFJunkie said:
Shoots100,
Powder burning up in a .22LR in 16 to 18 inches has been noted, but that it with about 3 grains of powder.
22.9 grains of Varget with an 80 grain Berger VLD bullet in a 26-inch .223 barrel is only 96.66% burned at the muzzle with a muzzle velocity of 2689 fps.
In a 24 inch barrel, only 96.08% of the powder is burned at the muzzle and velocity is 2642 fps.
Both loads are in the moderate psi range - just over 46K psi.

Barrel length makes a difference when the powder volume is sufficient, regardless of the distance the bullet will eventually travel.
Click to expand...
They've done .223 barrel length powder burn testing over the years ad nauseum.
There's a reason the standard AR15 barrel length is 16"s and the DMR that shoots the heavier projos is 18- 20"s.
Eugene Stoner and James Sullivan seemed to know what they were doing and i'll leave it at that.
If someone thinks a longer barrel will help them shoot smaller groups, go for it.

SJC
 
Not every .223 is an AR, even if you and ONE-TEN only shoot ARs.
The AR also has a release valve that moves the bolt back to control the action.
That is an active pressure release that changes the equation of barrel pressure for distance for that type of action. The same holds for a M1 or M1A or most semi-auto rifles.

If you had been more specific that you were talking only about ARs, I wouldn't have responded, but what you stated is patently false for bolt action firearms and I felt it needed a response.
But as a physicist and engineer, I tend to be more exact when making statements about measurements.

And I also should have stated that my data was based a bolt action.
We both presumed that others would understood our intent.
 
Let's not beat a dead horse here.
The need for slower burning powders using really heavy projos with a long barrel isn't needed to achieve match accuracy at 100-200 yards with a semi or bolt action .223.
A 20-24" appropriately twisted barrel shooting 50-60 grain flat based projos with a mid range powder is all that's needed to shoot tiny groups at that distance.
Especially if you want to get the most life out of a barrel, which is what I'm assuming the OP would like.
A 22" 1-12 twist was my preference with a medium contoured barrel shooting 52 gr flat base projos, but I'm told a 1-9 twist is a good all around projo weight twist rate now a days.

SJC
 
Shoots100 said:
Let's not beat a dead horse here.
The need for slower burning powders using really heavy projos with a long barrel isn't needed to achieve match accuracy at 100-200 yards with a semi or bolt action .223.
A 20-24" appropriately twisted barrel shooting 50-60 grain flat based projos with a mid range powder is all that's needed to shoot tiny groups at that distance.
Especially if you want to get the most life out of a barrel, which is what I'm assuming the OP would like.
A 22" 1-12 twist was my preference with a medium contoured barrel shooting 52 gr flat base projos, but I'm told a 1-9 twist is a good all around projo weight twist rate now a days.

SJC
Click to expand...
You assume correctly. My best groups ever in high 1s to high 2s have been 50 to 52 gn bullets. Currently a 26" 9 twist, which is great, but i think the extra length makes harmonics more finicky. Once youre in the zone its great though. I was thinking a 9 twist in 22" bull might be a option.
 
CFJunkie said:
Not every .223 is an AR, even if you and ONE-TEN only shoot ARs.
The AR also has a release valve that moves the bolt back to control the action.
That is an active pressure release that changes the equation of barrel pressure for distance for that type of action. The same holds for a M1 or M1A or most semi-auto rifles.

If you had been more specific that you were talking only about ARs, I wouldn't have responded, but what you stated is patently false for bolt action firearms and I felt it needed a response.
But as a physicist and engineer, I tend to be more exact when making statements about measurements.

And I also should have stated that my data was based a bolt action.
We both presumed that others would understood our intent.
Click to expand...

Just for clarification, I simply mentioned I myself used 223 in ARs only, as being matter of fact. However, I never stated, nor do I recognize 223 gaining any velocity over a 16”-18” barrel. In fact, I believe just the opposite! A 223 will continue gaining speed past a 18” barrel, past a 20” barrel and even a 22” barrel from what I’ve seen. Below is a quite detailed video with a shooter testing a 22” vs 24” with his reloads. Different weight bullets & different powders even. Good detail. I believe a 223 starts meeting diminishing returns at about the 28” length, not positive. However, for more velocity over 18”, I AM positive.

 

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