8208 or Varget in .223 69 grain

[17Hornet]

Moving from 80 grain to 69 in my .223. 1:7 twist Criterion barrel. Have always used Varget with 80's but wondering what you guys think about the 8208 in a slightly lighter bullet, 69.
Of course, you gotta just try both and see what it likes, but was wondering about your experiences.

 

[CFJunkie]

Every barrel has its own preferences, but I find that 69s, especially SMKs and TMKs shoot just about as accurately as the best 80s in my 1:7 twist barrel.
Varget works very well with my .223 bullets above 60 grains and has the advantage of being temperature insensitive.
Lighter bullets than that seem to prefer faster powders, especially N133.

 

[ONE-TEN]

BL-C(2), thank you very much.

Just kidding. Although it is my choice for everything in 223. Although I don’t load 223 for extreme overall accuracy. Nor do I load 80gr pills. Heaviest I use are 75gr., and all my 223 must be loaded to MAG length OAL. I’ve just always used BL-C(2) because it works. Gives decent accuracy & speed. Actually, it’s quite similar to Varget. I also have a couple lbs of Accurate 2520, though I’ve never used it. I just came across it on sale and couldn’t pass up grabbing it. I’ve never used 8208 XBR either. I tend to stay away from IMR powders. Those powders they share with other brands, such as Hodgdon, with the likes of 4350, the IMR just doesn’t seem to deliver. I’ve never known anyone to have better results with IMR4350 over Hodgdon 4350. And I have no knowledge of Accurate 4350 performance. But I digress.

If you experience with or on good authority that 8208XBR might perform well, give it a try. But take precaution. The 8208 is quite a bit hotter burn, coupled with using a very heavy .224” bullet of 80gr. The two practices tend to be at odds, however, I’ve heard it done many times with good results. Good luck!

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I find H335 and TAC to work for me in my.223/.556

 

[sparky123321]

Varget + 69gr SMK = a very accurate round

 

[17Hornet]

I should rephrase "moving away from 80" to "adding 69 grain"....my 80 grain Nosler CC are very accurate

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Varget + 69gr SMK = a very accurate round

I'll give the Varget a try with SMK'S. I tested some other loads with them. And RMR won out.

 

[17Hornet]

Thats good to see the RMRs are doing well. I bought 1000 awhile back figured I'd use them in my 20" AR, but if they shoot that good I'l give them a try in my bolt

 

[CFJunkie]

You might find that seating depth might aid accuracy. 69 SMKs are not really long so I have to watch how much shank is in the neck so I get consistent neck tension and not fight to get close to the lands.
With my new Shilen 26-inch 1:7 twist barrel, I had two loads that averaged 0.181 and 0.193 for 4 groups of each at 100 yards.
OAL was 2.393 and 2.391 at 2733 and 2732 fps respectively using Varget.
I had 6 loads that averaged 0.209 for 23 groups, but one of the loads was a complete bust with an average of 0.246 for 4 groups. Probably wasn't paying enough attention when I shot those 4 groups.
The other 5 loads averaged 0.201 for 19 groups.
The 69 SMKs will shoot accurately with Varget when I do my part.
The only bullet that out performed it was the 80 Berger VLDs with a 0.205 average, and that set had two groups that score .245 and 0.269.
Now you have ample proof of what I mean by shooter induced variations - generally one shot out of 5 that goes awry
Your Criterion 1:7 twist might like the above approach, or something close to it.

 

[K80skeet]

I have a LRPV .223 1 in 9 twist The very best load I have ever found is 25.0 gr Winchester 748 with a Remington case and a 69 Sierra Match King set .005 of the lands. It shoots tiny little one hole 5 shot groups. I have found the load does this in all Savage .223's with a 1 in 9 twist. Give it a try and never look back.

 

[17Hornet]

K80, Varget and 748, on paper, are very similar and that load of 25 grn is close to what I've found in my 1:7 twist. I use 25.3 and a just a couple thousands of lands.
My favorite rifle was a used lrpv, .223, 1:7. The trigger started acting up and like a fool I figured the barrel was close to its end so I sold it rather than simply buying a better trigger. Poor judgement call. So now I have a 110, Jard trigger, Criterion barrel and a Bell Carlson which is arriving today. In hind sight I shoulda purchased a lrpv, I really liked that left eject port shooting off a bench

 

[KMW1954]

Been shooting a Savage 223 with a 26" factory Varmint barrel with a 1:9 twist. Shot a lot of 60/62/69 gr bullets through it. Never could find a Varget load that impressed me. Could never find 8208. I found that Benchmark and A2460 produced the most accurate and consistent loads in my rifle. My understanding is that Benchmark and 8208 perform very similar.

Only way to know for sure is to load it and shoot it.

 

[CFJunkie]

KMW1934
My last 23 5- round groups with 69 SMKs with 22.6 gr of Varget averaged 0.209 all between 2.386 and 2.396 OAL at around 2732 to 2736 fps at 100 yards. These loads were focused on an Optimum Bullet Time for a 26-inch 416R SS barrel.
That explains the closeness of the OALs - I adjusted for bullet trim length to keep the exit time right on OBT for this barrel.
These loads were well below Pmax and very gentle on the brass.

Best loads were 0.181, 0.197 and 0.202 with 4 groups each.
Also had loads of 0.212 and 0.217 with 3 and 4 groups respectively.
Maybe that might help in figuring out what kind of load might work for you. The variation in group sizes was more a factor of the shooter's inability to maintain consistency while shooting multiple groups than the loading characteristics.

The 0.209 average includes one load of 4 groups that averaged 0.246 (apparently my mind was not on shooting at the time) because none of the 4 groups were anywhere near the 0.201 average of the other 19 groups.
That is a classic example of 'Shooter Induced Variation" with one round in each of the groups that was nowhere near my aim point and spoiled each group. The other 4 rounds were about like the other 19 groups, but one of the rounds out of the 5 didn't go where I thought I aimed.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Is an OAL of 2.386 and 2.396 into the lands?

 

[CFJunkie]

Not in my barrel. If you have a new barrel without any erosion and it has minimum free bore, you might be able to hunt the lands with a 69 gr SMK. Then seating out to get the bullet seated near the lands is a very normal practice.
My barrel has a VLD chamber suited for 90 gr bullets and has 0.090 free bore, so the lighter calibers are well off the lands and the barrel also has over 4,000 rounds down it so the lands also are eroded.
Instead of trying to hunt the lands, my biggest concern with lighter bullets is keeping around 1/2 caliber (0.112) of the bullet shank in the neck to maintain consistent neck tension, especially with brass that has been reloaded more than 6 or 7 times.
Keeping that amount of bullet shank in the neck gives me the best accuracy. (Remember boat tails don't touch the neck at all so you can't count that length as bullet shank.
My data shows that pushing bullets out to get closer to the lands really causes a loss in accuracy when there is less than 0.080 of shank left in the lands.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

It would be a good idea to post that your seating lengths are for custom barrels. That way someone wont load an round their rifle may not handle safely.

 

[CFJunkie]

You're right. I should have stated that at the outset.
But, I presumed that anyone who expected to load to the lands on a particular rifle would have measured where the lands were on a particular barrel. It wouldn't be safe to seat bullets to touch the lands if you don't know where the lands are.
But I guess there are some shooters that don't really think about that kind of stuff, or presume that all barrels have their lands at the same distance from the bolt face. From some of the posts I've seen on sites, a lot of reloaders really don't know much about reloading.

Then again, my first Savage .308 (2008) factory barrel had a significantly deep chamber out of the box.
It wasn't marked as a large, free bore chamber.
My next Savage .308 (2010) had a chamber that was almost 0.075 shorter than the first .308.

Most of my other factory barrels were more like the second .308 and I never got another Savage barrel factory with a chamber anywhere as deep as the first .308.

Savage may have changed their approach between 2008 and 2010 or that first barrel just got of the factory with an error.
It shot good enough, even with the deep chamber, that 4 other guys at our range bought Savages.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

The newer reloaders. With new books. Don't know how in the past. You had to find max OAL.

 

[ONE-TEN]

It would be a good idea to post that your seating lengths are for custom barrels. That way someone wont load an round their rifle may not handle safely.

Your post makes sense, however, there has GOT to be a very high level of self responsibility in reloading. Anyone who would blindly load a recipe from some source online, WITHOUT understanding it completely, should NOT be reloading in the first place! That person needs more learning.

And that is such a problem today. People over-estimating their own knowledge. Personally, I don’t DO anything I haven’t learned & studied up, down, sideways & diagonally; then flipped over repeated…. SIX TIMES! LOL! Too many people want that instant satisfaction. And it doesn’t work like that. I’ve earned the information I know. Because I’ve studied it & practiced it for over two decades. And yes, I know there are many who have so longer. That’s not what I’m stressing here. I don’t care if a person has done something for 5 years or 50! You simply KNOW, when you know. That’s all I mean by the time factor. For many years, I’ve seen people afraid to post their loads. And they say things like “I don’t want to give my recipe for fear of a less experienced person trying to copy it and getting injured.” Frankly, the only warning should be, “DON’T reload PERIOD, unless you know exactly what you are doing. And if you need to stop and think about it, you shouldn’t do it!” We live in a world in which a number of shooters believe simply owning firearms for a long time & hunting, somehow makes that person very knowledgeable. I often hurt people’s feelings because I tell them unless they both reload & build firearms, they are not as knowledgeable as someone who does so. Man-Oh-man does the truth torque up some people.

That’s all I’m saying on that.

 

[KMW1954]

KMW1934
My last 23 5- round groups with 69 SMKs with 22.6 gr of Varget averaged 0.209 all between 2.386 and 2.396 OAL at around 2732 to 2736 fps at 100 yards.

Before I moved to the 6ARC, my 223 69gr SMK load was using A2460 @ 23.7gr and running around 2800fps., consistent 1/4MOA at 100yds and under 1/2moa at 200/300yds.

When I post loads I very seldom include finished lengths because we all measure differently. I measure with a comparator and measure BTO. Never used OBT and really know nothing about it.

But at 2.345 OAL I still am not to lands.

 

[17Hornet]

KMW1954, I also do all my load development measuring BTO and agree different brands probly measure differently. Guess thats why, tho not as accurate, guys will give a oal measurement

 

[CFJunkie]

I use BTO in my VLD chambered barrel with 0.090 free bore, if I am loading 85 to 90 grain bullets, as long as the particular bullets have enough shank in the neck. With some of the newer high BC bullets, the boat tail is so long that the remaining shank becomes a bit of a limit.

With 80 gr bullets, I have to monitor the amount of bullet shank that is in the neck since the BTO length that I would prefer to get to a desired jump gets the bullets seated out so far that the amount of bullet shank in the neck becomes marginal if I hunt the lands.
Monitoring the bullet shank in the neck to keep it from getting smaller than 0.075 becomes the driving factor on choosing seating depth.

Even with loading to maintain a accuracy insuring shank in the neck instead of jump, 80 gr Berger VLDs, Hornady ELD-Ms, and Sierra SMKs lead the list of the most accurate bullets in my barrel. The 90's and 73s have averages that are within 0.002 of the 80s.

Once I choose the COAL for the load that is around 1/2 width in the neck, I also measure each round for BTO and try to make sure that every round in a load is +/- 0.001 around the desired BTO. At least I know that every round is about as good as I can control its length, once the desired length is chosen.

 

[Paddyd]

Moving from 80 grain to 69 in my .223. 1:7 twist Criterion barrel. Have always used Varget with 80's but wondering what you guys think about the 8208 in a slightly lighter bullet, 69.
Of course, you gotta just try both and see what it likes, but was wondering about your experiences.

while it wasnt a 69gn it was a 68gn Hornady and 8208XBR did great. The thing to look out for with that powder is the peak pressure threshold is fairly abrupt, at least in my experience with it. ie,watch for pressure signs closely as you work up in powder.