Which .223 chamber for target work?

[Billnthedesert]

Does one unquestionably choose the standard .223 Remington chamber or is the .223 Wylde just as capable, along with being more versatile?

 

[CFJunkie]

I would think it would be based upon what you intend to shoot.

For an AR, I would pick the Wylde every day of the week, especially if I was going to focus on bullets that normally fit in the AR Mag length. I just don't like trying to cram a long bullet back into the brass just to fit into an AR Mag.
I have shot 80 gr bullets in my AR, but had to single feed them to keep from trying to fit within a mag limit of 2.273 inches OAL.

For a bolt action, I don't know if it matters as much, especially if you hand load, and if you desire to shoot heavy bullets.

But all my target .223s have had a .223 Remington chamber.
My latest .223 target rifle, at 1:7 twist, has a .223 Remington with a VLD chamber (with 0.090 free bore) that is made for really long bullets in the 80 to 90 gr range.
I tend to load my 90s out past 2.620 so I have to single feed them.
The VLD chamber barrel shoots pretty much everything great, but for lighter bullets in the 69 gr to 75 gr range, I monitor bullet base in neck and do not try to focus on minimizing jump.
With that much free bore, the light bullets easily get too little bullet shank in the neck when you try to minimize jump to the lands.
With bullets less than 80 grs, I try to keep bullet shank in neck at 1/2 caliber (0.112) and never let it get shorter than 0.070) because the accuracy drops off, especially when the brass has more than 10 reloads.

 

[Billnthedesert]

Thank you CF. I have had a few ARs over the years but just don't care for the platform, so it would be a bolt action. The VLD throat seems to be a very pious idea.

 

[ONE-TEN]

Yes, for an AR, I believe the Wylde chamber is an advantage. But if I wanted a Bolt Action, I most assuredly, would want 223 Rem, SPECIFICALLY! And I would do a 223 Rem MATCH chamber if it was a competition rifle.

As it is, I’m the exact opposite as yourself. I’m not the least bit interested a Bolt Action in 223. And I the AR15. And 223 is one of the cartridges I will ALWAYS own! But it ALWAYS be in an AR I’ve built. (Wylde Chamber for my AR’s)

 

[CFJunkie]

The VLD is really for the 80 gr to 90 gr bullets.
If I was going to shoot mostly 73s to 77s and wanted to track jump, I would lean toward a match chamber.

Not that I don't like my VLD chamber. It just eliminates considering Jump for bullets lighter than 80 grains.
Then again, I have just done a pretty detailed analysis of accuracy versus both Jump and BBIN with the .223 and 6.5mm Shilen barrels and, to be honest, I don't see any clear advantage based upon jump or even upon BBIN once you get more than 33% of bullet caliber in the neck. The .223 has the VLD chamber and the 6.5mm has a standard chamber.
With the 6.5mm CM, I can hunt the lands and the BBIN is never less than 1/2 caliber from 130 gr to 147 gr bullets. I think even 120 gr bullets would still allow hunting the lands, but I haven't tried them.
With the .223 VLD chamber, trying to minimize Jump is not a possibility for most bullets and for the lighter bullets, under 73 gr, can barely stay in the neck.

 

[Billnthedesert]

Thanks fellas. OneTen, you are obviously not alone in your fondness for the AR platform, and more power to you. I've had several -- including a Noveske -- and just never bonded. I've shot them in 5.56, including with blanks in Army ROTC, 6.5 Grendel, .300 Blackout, .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM. No question about the AR's versatility.
CF: I should probably work with this little Howa .22 ARC with 88-grain Hornadys. It has a 1:7 barrel, but of course it is factory.

 

[CFJunkie]

I suggest you measure the chamber, but you should be able to hunt the lands with all bullets heavier than 80 grs with a factory chamber. A 1:7 twist should be able to perform well with up to 90 gr bullets, but you might have to seat some of them back a bit to deal with a factory chamber.
I've had the best results with the Berger 85.5 gr LRHTs and Berger 80 gr VLDs.
The 90 Berger VLDs and 90 SMKs aren't far behind them.

80 gr Berger VLDs have a bullet length of 1.102 and an ogive to tip length of 0.625.
80 gr Hornady ELD-Ms have a bullet length of 1.061 and an ogive to tip length of 0.644.
80 gr Sierra SMKs have a bullet length of 1.101 and an ogive length of 0.648.
85.5 Berger LRHTs have a bullet length of 1.172 and an ogive to tip length of 0.675.
88 Hornady ELD-Ms have an bullet length of 1.235 with an ogive to tip length of 0.665.
90 gr SMKs have a bullet length of 1.181 and 1.181 with an ogive to tip length of 0.638.
90 gr Berger VLDs have a bullet length of 1.254 and a ogive to tip length of 0.632.
These bullet measures might change a few thousandths lot to lot.

You might have to seat the really long 88 gr ELD-Ms and 90 Berger VLDs back a bit to fit a factory chamber, but they should still shoot pretty accurately. The others, I suspect will fit a 1:7 twist factory chamber without problems.

 

[ONE-TEN]

I’m baggin’ what you’re rakin!

For me, it got deep with AR’s. About 2016/2017, I started machining 80% Biller Lowers myself. Although I had already been assembling them since about 2006, This added a whole other level to simply putting them together. Much higher pride of ownership. And the AR’s I turn out are great performers!

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I should try some heavy's in my 1:7 and 1:8 twist AR'S. I do have 75's loaded for them. Just need to test them.

 

[CFJunkie]

My 1:9 Factory Savage .223 12 FV shot 77 gr SMKs a accurately as any other bullet.
(It's twist was actually measured at 1:8.75).

A 1:8 twist should even shoot 80s. 75s and 77s would be no brainers.
My 1:7 shoots 90 gr Bergers and SMKs accurately.

Every barrel has preferences, but both my 1:9 and 1:7 shot 73 gr Bergers and 73 gr ELD-Ms great.
For some reason, the 75s are not among the best and neither are the 70s.
But both liked 69s and 77s and the 1:7 shoots 80s, 85.5s, 88s and 90s great.
Out of 15 different bullets (69 grs to 90 grs), even with all my shooter induced variations, the average of 5 round groups by bullet vary only 0.015 max and the overall average is 0.215.
Without my shooter induced variations ,15 different bullets averages (69 to 90 grs) vary by 0.011 but the overall average is 0.196.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

My Bergara 22-250 is a 1:9 twist. It does well with 75's.

 

[Billnthedesert]

This is probably the subject of many other threads but what powder do you fellas like when shooting the heavies?

 

[CFJunkie]

CoalCracker,

To me, it looks familiarly like one or two got away.

My rifles that had stocks too short for me, used to do that. The first two or three kept together and then the last two moved high and higher.
Turns out that I discovered that the short stocks allowed me to move forward closer to the eyepiece with each recoil, even with a light recoiling .223, so for the later shots in the group, the bullets move up because my aim point was not where I thought it was.

Adjustable stocks that fit me better and removed the sneaking up on recoil solved that problem.
I still have issues with shooter induced variations when I lose concentration, but at least I don't sneak up on the eyepiece because of recoil.

 

[CFJunkie]

BIllinthedesert,

For all my heavy bullets (heavier than 60 grains) I use powders that are normally considered .308 powders. H4895, Varget, N140, N540, IMR4166, IMR4064 and, sometimes, CFE223.

Lately, because it is temperature insensitive, I have been using Varget.
When I load a temperature sensitive powder, I use the temperature adjustment feature in QuickLOAD, but you still have to estimate the temperature that you will be shooting in a couple of days in advance. Since some of the listed powders change 1.24 fps per degree F., loading with a temperature sensitive powder a couple of days in advance is like a crapshoot if you load for Optimum Bullet Time like I do.

Varget changes around 0.06 fps per degree F. so if my guess is off 10 degrees, the impact on the load and Exit Time is still less than 1 fps. 2 fps in velocity changes Exit Time by 0.001 msec. which, if find, is not noticeable in accuracy at the target.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

This is probably the subject of many other threads but what powder do you fellas like when shooting the heavies?

It's hard to say. Each gun and bullet reacts differently to powders. I have done well with H335,H380 and CFE 223. I still need to test Vargent. BLC2 and 2230 i have not been impressed with across the board.

 

[ONE-TEN]

I use BLC2 for ALL my 223. Granted I haven’t experimented much, because I have only shot 223 from my AR’s. But BLC2 is a fantastic powder. Years ago I made up a bunch using 60gr V-max bullets & a MAX charge of BLC2. They were NASTY!

 

[Josh06]

I should try some heavy's in my 1:7 and 1:8 twist AR'S. I do have 75's loaded for them. Just need to test them.

I use 73 eldm's in my 1/7 AR. It's my thermal set up and works well from hogs to coons and everything in between.

 

[CFJunkie]

All three of my .223 rifles and 4 different barrels always shot 73 gr bullets accurately. Three were 1:9s one was a 1:7 twist. Twist didn't seem to matter.
73 Berger BBTs shot slightly better than 73 ELD-Ms in a couple, but both were really accurate.

My 1:7 Shilen barrel with a VLD chamber still shoots 73s right up there among the most accurate bullets, with only a couple of thousandths different in average from the 80s and 90s. With the Shilen barrel, the ELD-M average is 0.002 better than the Bergers, but that could be one pulled round out of around 40 groups each. Anytime a bullet averages under 0.200, I can't complain.

 

[ONE-TEN]

All three of my .223 rifles and 4 different barrels always shot 73 gr bullets accurately. Three were 1:9s one was a 1:7 twist. Twist didn't seem to matter.
73 Berger BBTs shot slightly better than 73 ELD-Ms in a couple, but both were really accurate.

My 1:7 Shilen barrel with a VLD chamber still shoots 73s right up there among the most accurate bullets, with only a couple of thousandths different in average from the 80s and 90s. With the Shilen barrel, the ELD-M average is 0.002 better than the Bergers, but that could be one pulled round out of around 40 groups each. Anytime a bullet averages under 0.200, I can't complain.

You’re right! I’ve always found the same. 223 just doesn’t much care about twist. Unless maybe going with the super, super LONG bullets above 77grain. 80 & 90 grain pills. And although I’ve only used 223 in the ARs I built, I found that from 40gr to 75gr bullets didn’t care if the barrel use 1:7, 1:8 or 1:9! Each one shot the entire string of different weights pretty much the same. It’s an awesome cartridge I will always love.

 

[NF1E]

I use .223 Rem Match chamber in 1-7 twist heavy ss barrels.
As has been said, in an AR it doesn't much matter, they only shoot half fast anyway. Unless you get into Uintah bolt ARs or something like the AR Five Seven in the photos, then you have something. Whatta Hobby!

 

[Billnthedesert]

I thnk it's been too long since I had any Varget in the house.

 

[CFJunkie]

Nice selection.
You get the best out of them.

 

[CFJunkie]

Billinthedesert,

I went a couple of years without being able to find any Varget.
Recently, I've been able to find lots of it.
For .223 heavies, it is my go-to powder because of its temperature insensitivity, but N540 and H4895 are also great powders for .223 heavies if you are careful about temperature.

 

[Billnthedesert]

I see a number of barrel manufacturers mentioned. Does anyone here have an opinion about Pac-Nor barrels? They were well-liked among the varmint-class shooters back in Southern Oregon, where I used to live. I got to visit with Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool a time or two. He measured an original .40-90 Peabody What Cheer cartridge that I had loaned to me for study -- and made a reamer print from it. Also got to know both Dave and Richard Corbin.

 

[ONE-TEN]

Ahh, Dave Kiff. Good guy. He can tell you a story two about certain Savage people. LOL!

I haven’t used a Pac-Nor barrel myself, although I wouldn’t hesitate using one. Only think is they cost a bit much compared to other hand lapped, Button Rifled barrels. A Shilen/Criterion/McGowen MATCH barrel costs $400 or less! And their results are without contestation. I’m not sure a PAC-Nor can offer anything better. However, at $525 for a PAC-Nor, Prefit, they are priced more like Single Point Cut rifled Barrel.

 

[Paddyd]

Does one unquestionably choose the standard .223 Remington chamber or is the .223 Wylde just as capable, along with being more versatile?

If you want to shoot surplus 5.56 NATO ammo, go Wylde. Also if your twist is fast enough and you need to shoot long heavy bullets go Wylde. That said, anything 77 and under, standard chamber is fine. Too long a freebore makes it hard to shoot light short bullets. I shoot a SAMI 9 twist 26" Criterion barrel that shoots everything well from 50 gn BKs up to 77MKs. It all depends on application.

 

[Billnthedesert]

CF, I tried H4895 under some Hornady 88-grain ELD-Ms on Sunday in the .22 ARC and got very promising results -- but I am also trying to relearn how to shoot from a bench the way I was taught years ago by an Army marksman. You fellas here chasing perfection and measuring groups with a micrometer will laugh at my groups, but for me they represent progress. This is a Howa Mini 1500, plastic stock, 2-pound 10-ounce trigger and 22-inch sporter barrel. I called the high shot in the upper target. The first rifle I shot on Sunday was a Savage 110 Trailblazer in .450 Bushmaster, and my load was 11 grains of unique under a powder coated Accurate 45-490K weighing 296 grains and loafing along at 1,215. The Savage factory trigger is fully a pound lighter than the Howa and I really noticed the difference.
I am about out of H 4895 and will go to Varget next, although I have LeveRevolution and CFE 223 on hand. Like Unique, Varget is a powder I have come to trust for many years.

 

[CFJunkie]

Don't get too concerned.
Shooting accurately is a learned skill.

From your target, it looks like you might not be maintaining your position behind the scope and moving to the right or the left of the optical plane on each shot.
I get on the target and then move my head slightly back until I can see the black ring around the edge of the scope. I make sure it is centered (concentric around the scope edge and then move in carefully until it just goes away. I stop when it just disappears because if I go further, the bullet will hit higher than my aim point.

Over the years, I have learned to be aware of each rifle's fit with my size and shape.
You have to be observant about what works and doesn't work or you, if you want to improve.

I have several good rifles that are just too short for my frame.
I have changed stocks on 7 different accurate rifles to get the right fit.
I also have had to learn how to use a trigger without jerking it and aiming accurately.

Sounds like I was pretty stupid and inept, but I was shooting in the low .4s eight years ago and now I am averaging around 0.2 with my .223 and under 0.250 with my 6.5mm CM. (Recoil has always been a problem for me since I weigh under 145 lbs.)
The improvement was all because I worked on what I needed to improve.
A good barrel helped, but only about 20% improvement, the rest was figuring out what I had to do to improve.
I had to relearn how to aim when I got a barrel that could actually put every shot where it was aimed. It was amazing that, when the rifle and the shooter didn't perform, how I wasn't aiming as precisely. Now I am careful to aim exactly. Using a high powered scope with a target reticle helps, but I was aiming sloppily with the same scopes when I was shooting a lot less accurately.

 

[Billnthedesert]

I will work on applying your welcome advice, CF. I admit to struggling a bit with the scope on this a rifle -- an SWFA 12X42. Might need new glasses, too.

 

[Paddyd]

Driving the rifle is fully 50% if not more where groups are concerned. You should concentrate on keeping the front and rear rests in the same place along the stock as well as how tightly to the shoulder along with how tightly you grip it. Set it up on a table and dry fire a few hundred times taking note as to whether anything moved during the process. I have found that even with all that, alo g with after carefully load work up, just getting tired after 15 or 20 shots people tend to get sloppy on the fundamentals. That includes myself. Ive learned to take my time at the bench. Now after 10 rounds, I'll sit back and scroll through my phone for a few minutes letting the barrel cool a bit and my muscles to relax. It has made a difference.
Also, if using a bipod,
load the legs with a bit of pressure by leaning into the stock.